"NICE GUY" done right [0530.1999]

posted to mindlist

I've been thinking of posting this for quite some time, because I think it's something that's been overlooked in the NLS/SS scene, and it may be of value to some people... Yes, it's long.. But *I* learned a whole lot just from writing this, and I think you will too:

PART 1: TWO NICE GUY DRAMAS (THAT DON'T WORK!)

I'll put a disclaimer here.. I'm not (yet) a real whiz when it comes to women. I've tended to be rather shy and have had (in the past) a hard time expressing my feelings out loud to (some) women I've met. I've often fallen into the "nice guy" and then the "lets just be friends" role - especially when I finally did voice my feelings out loud. But, there have been other times when I did the "harmless/nice guy" thing and been successful at stirring up feelings in the other person with it. I think I know why.

Before I go on, let me say that a lot of women really do get into nice guys. I know this because I've always tried to be a nice guy to everyone. And I've had plenty of women start to really like me. In most cases, it went like this:

Boy meets girl he isn't really attracted to (usually this was at school). boy is nice to her. They become friends (at least in the context of the class/setting in which they met). After a while, girl works up the courage to say she's really attracted to boy. boy gets uncomfortable and inadvertently hurts girl's feelings for lack of skill in letting her down easy. Boy feels guilty, boy and girl wind up not speaking for a while, perhaps avoiding each other. More often than not, boy loses a friend.

As a "nice guy", I couldn't just say "I'm not attracted to you." (Why not? It's the truth, right? Isn't that the best in the end?) And "Let's just be friends" never seemed much better. In the end, I usually settled for a little white lie: "I'm just not looking for a relationship right now."

Here's what's tended to happen when I've met a girl I liked, become friends with her, but things didn't work out romantically:

Boy meets girl to whom he is instantly attracted. Boy is nice to her, and they become friends. Boy keeps his feelings secret as friendship develops, perhaps giving an occasional compliment, but otherwise remaining strictly Platonic. The friendship becomes much deeper, full of long, perhaps intimate conversations. Girl says boy really understands her, she feels safe with him. boy and girl truly value each others friendship. In some cases, there are moments where the two almost seem ready to become lovers, but neither acts on it. In fact, the two rarely even make casual physical contact.

Finally, boy works up the courage to (verbally) tell her how he feels. Girl doesn't feel the same way, or simply "doesn't want to jeopardize" their friendship. boy gets sad, accepts the current state of affairs, but finally remains friends with the girl. Often, girl will find a new boyfriend. boy, still carrying a torch for her, decides to wait it out and remain friends, because things may change at some point in the future.

Okay, those two stories are probably only too familiar to many of you. They've happened enough times to me that I've actually become a little wary of letting women into my life. In fact, up until I (just now) realized these patterns, my biggest mental roadblock in approaching women has had nothing to do with an immediate rejection (perhaps because it's almost never happened to me) but with the fear of starting one of these two patterns.

I've been reading about software patterns, where programmers have identified and named various common situations. It makes them easier to talk about, study, identify, and - of course - use. I feel I should stick a label on these two behavioral patterns (and others) for the same reasons.

The word "pattern" is already taken in NLS, so how about "drama"? I'd like to give these mythological or literary names, but I haven't thought of any myths or stories like this, except Niles and Daphne from the show "Fraiser" for drama # 2.. (Niles never actually did confess his love to Daphne, but I suspect he may next season..) But since they're really just the same story with the male and female characters swapped, I'll call these the "reverse Niles drama" and the "Niles drama" for now.

Any thoughts for better names? And would labeling dramas like these actually be useful to anyone else?

I don't really have advice for anyone already in one of the above two dramas. I wish I did. All I can say now is, if you're in the Niles role, get over it and find someone else. If you want to be friends, that's fine. Just get over this person. I've still got a few platonic relationships with girls I used to really like. I value the friendship, but I don't need the grief of wanting something more from them and not getting it.

Okay.. Sorry guys.. I had no intention of spending so much time on these dramas that DON'T work out... Because, looking back through my experience, I've noticed...

PART 2: A NICE GUY DRAMA THAT ACTUALLY WORKS

I hate to admit it, but of all the ways in the world to meet and seduce women, I've tried only two. As a result, I know one way that works, and one way that doesn't. The one that doesn't work is the Niles Drama - just being friends, and then suddenly professing one's love. The way that does work is a sort of nice-guy, kinesthetic seduction.

Here's the drama, as I've experienced it:

Boy meets girl. Boy and girl may or may not quickly become friends, possibly through a long conversation. Boy and girl have rapport. They wind up in each other's "personal space." Boy initiates innocent (?) / nonthreatening physical contact. Boy and girl soon have a romantic encounter on their hands.

Let's look at some case studies. The archetypical example is the guy and the girl at the movies. They're sitting next to each other. He stretches out, pretending to yawn, and winds up with his arm around her. I've never actually done this, but I would guess one of two things happens: either she likes it or she doesn't... And I would think it's all about whether she feels safe.

Don't get me wrong. A guy who's come off as being strong, and powerful (we sometimes call these guys "jerks" whether or not this is the case.. just as the guys we call "nice guys" might not actually be all that nice after all..) and romantic.. His success is all about heat and fire right from the start, engulfing her, and lighting her own fire from the inside.. This nice guy approach starts with warmth and slowly builds... Too much too soon, and she draws back instantly.. So the arm on the chair is welcome only if she can still feel safe.

Here's an example from real life:

SARAH

I met Sarah over a BBS back when I was in high school. I was just tossing out witty remarks that no one seemed to get, and then I noticed Sarah actually understood what I was talking about. We moved into a private chat, seemed to be having fun, and decided to meet in person. [note: I don't usually recommend meeting girls from online]

Sarah was tiny (I like short girls!), blond, pretty, creative, and involved with an absolute loser. (I believe he was in jail or suicidal or something). Still, she loves him and isn't interested in a relationship with someone else, so I'm just being friendly. Anyway, we're out in this park near her house. The place is huge, and it's getting dark. We're pretty much secluded, sitting on a picnic table, watching the fireflies and talking. She says something about her back hurting.. I wind up giving her a back rub... And basically wind up with her sitting in my lap, cuddling with me while I held her from behind

I was actually sick at the time, or I probably would have kissed her. Later I asked her what she would have done if I had, and she said it would have been nice. She later said something along the lines of: "I love my boyfriend.. but you're such a great guy... I don't know what to do." We drifted apart fairly soon after.

Just about everyone likes back rubs and massage, and it's fascinating because it can be totally platonic or highly erotic, and it's easy to blur the difference. [well, maybe not totally platonic : most guys I know (myself included) won't give a massage to another guy.. But I've noticed a lot of girls will massage each other and think nothing of it]

In this case, we knew each other briefly before the encounter, so it's easy enough to say she liked me already. But check this out:

AUDREY

I was in a strange city with some friends of mine. Two of them (a guy and a girl) lived in this city. They had some of their intown friends over (two girls, I think) and we were all watching a movie on TV (Awakenings, with Robin Williams).. I wound up sitting on the couch next to Audrey, one of the friends, with whom I had barely spoken. It was fairly late at night, and we were tired, and somehow I wound up leaning into a pillow that was resting against her. Well, we were sharing a popcorn bowl and pretty soon she started feeding me. Pretty soon after that, we started touching each other, playing with each others hair, etc.. Understand that this wasn't just me making moves on her, or vice versa. It's just that we were relaxed, we were right next to each other, and it just seemed like the natural thing to do.

It didn't get beyond that, because we were in a room full of other people, but the other guys told me later that they were impressed. I wound up picking Audrey up from her house the next day (they had me go alone) and actually talked to her. It turned out we had nothing in common. We were all watching another movie that night, though, and Audrey and I again started playing around with each other... Anyway, we left the city, and I never saw her again.

Interesting? I'm convinced this happened not because she liked me, per se, but... Well, I was in her space, I wasn't threatening (I just wanted to rest my head.. how can that be threatening?)... And I didn't annoy her... So obviously she must want me there.

Think about it. Imagine someone is standing two inches in front of you, or someone sits down right next to you in a room full of empty chairs. On a very simple level, your brain is going to ask, is this person a threat? What are they doing in my personal space? And then you'll either decide you don't want them there, in which case, you'd back off or possibly even physically push them away (how many fights have you seen that started that way?) ... Or you decide the person is not a threat. In which case (my theory goes) you unconsciously decided that they're there because YOU want them to be there.

I've done this unconsciously several times. The first time I kissed a girl, we were walking around campus one night, and wound up alone in a lecture hall (yes, it was at college.. I was a late bloomer). We sat down in the back, next to each other. Now, this girl did not trust men at all, and said she did not want to have a relationship with anyone (which was mostly true). I knew that if I verbally told her that I liked her, she'd freak, so I was just being a friend. I had told her I didn't want a relationship with anyone either (which was also mostly true). She obviously trusted me, and had even let me put my arm around her when we were walking earlier in the evening. Now, in the back of this dark lecture hall, she felt comfortable enough to lie down next to me, and I felt confident enough to... after a few minutes of fumbling around... kiss her on the lips. She kissed me back and the next thing I knew, we were a couple.

PART 3: HOW IT WORKS

By being a nice guy, you're already perceived as being safe. You're like a puppy. She trusts you, she cares about you... But the last thing she wants is for you to suddenly want to be more than friends. Why? I don't know. If you've become the nice guy in her life, sweeping her off her feet is just *not* the right thing to do. Telling her how you feel is *not* the right thing to do. At least, not at first. Doing these things are almost certain to scare her.

Again, don't get me wrong. If you sweep her off her feet as soon as you meet her, that's a completely different story.

Did you ever see Yentil? (Oh my god.. I'm making references to Yentil!) Barbara Streisand plays a "guy" who goes off to be educated like a nice Jewish boy. She has long intellectual conversations with his best friend about the Talmud.. The only problem is, of course, that he's really a girl. Girls don't get educated, so she has to pretend to be a boy. It's that simple. Only then she falls in love with her best friend. (She even marries his girlfriend, if I recall...) Well, eventually, she tells her bud that she's really a girl, and he goes NUTS. Starts screaming at her for daring to defy tradition, etc... Yentil's crushed, of course.. Eventually, they do get together, but that's hollywood.

Now (guys) imagine that you started hanging out with a really cool guy, and he quickly becomes your new best friend. So then you're hanging out one day, and he suddenly reveals to you that he's a girl. Not only that, she's damn cute. And she likes you. How do you react? Maybe you jump her on the spot, but I suspect you'd be a little put off. Why has she been pretending? Whats her deal? What the hell is wrong with her?

That seems to be what girls go through when nice guys try to become lovers too fast. It's jarring, it's weird... and it just doesn't work.

But: if you are in the nice guy role... And she trusts you completely (because you're harmless).. then, again, you're like a puppy. And what do you do when a cute little puppy crawls into your lap? You pet it.

If she trusts you enough to let you snuggle up to her (and she will, if you've been a true "nice guy" ... even if she knows you care about her, because it won't occur to her that you're attracted to her sexually) then it's easy to go from the warmth of snuggling to the heat of passion. And she may even take the lead. The key is to lead kinesthetically, with actual touch - NOT with verbals.

Putting it all together into a high-chunk strategy:

• get her to feel safe with you (rapport, etc)
• move into her physical space in a nonthreatening manner
• initiate nonthreatening contact (unless she initiates it)
• do what comes natural

So that's it. That's the thing I've found to work. Does it work better than SS/NLS? Well, that depends. It usually does work. I've never before done it consciously, but every time I've done it, it worked. ("working" in this case means moving towards erotic on the platonic-erotic spectrum). It has worked despite a general mistrust for men in the girl.. And in several cases, it has worked despite the girl being in a relationship with someone else [I don't recommend trying that - karma and all, but at the time I was putting a lot of importance on these girls]. In many cases, it worked with a girl who I originally thought was "out of my league" [funny.. i don't have that concept anymore.. :) ]

I would say that it doesn't have speed, except Audrey's case seems to contradict that. In fact, as far as speed is concerned, it might actually out-do linguistic seduction in some cases. Consider the girls who are scared of feelings brought on by languages patterns. Some girls get hung up on the words. Is this guy for real? Etc. You've seen the threads. You've read the field reports... This bypasses language altogether, and relies almost totally on gently turning feelings of safety to feelings of passion. It's a "click, whirrr" response, as Cialdini would say..

Anyway, there you go. Try it if you like. Let me know how it goes. :)